Author Interview: Nika McKinney

Steph: Welcome to the show.

Nika: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Steph: We're super excited to talk.

Steph: You just became a published author this week.

Nika: I did. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Megan: To now finally have your precious little baby book in your hands right now.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: Well, she's here. Here she is. She doesn't leave my side. I keep her nice and warm and safe. It's been awesome, honestly. I don't know. It's just a delight. I have several behind me and my bookshelf. I put them right next to my other favorite books. So it's a surreal thing, but it's also just really cool to be like, I did this. I worked hard. It happened. So trying to relish, relish the hard work and allow myself to just feel all the good things.

Megan: Yes, absolutely.

Megan: Well, it's a beautiful book and she's so pretty in person too.

Nika: Thank you.

Megan: So happy for you.

Megan: Congrats on that.

Steph: Thank you.

Steph: So, first question, how would you describe Realms of Ruin in 10 words or less?

Nika: Okay. So it's not exactly 10 words just because the titles are big and long.But this is what I have for you.

Megan: How to do it.

Megan: How to do it.

Nika: Serpent in the Wings of Night meets Shield of Sparrows but make it angsty spies and slutty rings.

Megan: Oh, slutty rings.

Megan: Yes, please. I love it. Approved. I'll approve it.

Nika: Okay.

Megan: Yes.

Nika:Yes.

Megan: Now, what song would best describe your book?

Nika: Yes.

Nika: So there were three that I really rotated a bunch. One is Vigilante Shit by Taylor Swift. Yes. I honestly did listen to that to get into this zone of writing ruin when she was in this kind of vigilante space where she was ready to kill, ready to fight for justice. So that was a big one.

Nika: Another one is a song called See Her Out by Francis and the Lights.  It's actually, it's kind of a melancholy song, and the words are in a portion of the song, if you see her out there behind the wheel driving getaway, oh God, I hope she escapes. The whole damn world is a cage. And so there's a lot of thematic things in Realms of Ruin about being caged, about being trapped, whether through external forces or internal choices.

Nika: And then the last one is Elastic Heart by Sia. My favorite lines from there are, and I'll stay up through the night, let's be clear, I won't close my eyes. And I know that I can survive. I have walked through fire to save my life. You didn't break me, I'm still fighting for peace. And so again, that's just like me channeling the emotion for ruin. I really wanted to get into that sense of survivor, sense of hopelessness, but there's still just a tiny seed of hope in everything that she does.

Steph: I love that.

Megan: To write the second one down, because I haven't heard it.

Megan: I'm like, oh, yes, please.

Nika: See her out.

Nika: It's a good one.

Steph: So if you think back to like where the idea for this book came from and what inspired you to write it, where did you get that first like kernel of an idea?

Nika: Yes.

Nika: So just so you know, I am a context person if you are familiar with Clifton's Strengths Finders.

Nika: So I'm going to try to keep my history succinct. But essentially, I went through almost two years of severe medical issues. That left me late up in bed. I had a traumatic experience where I thought I was going to die. I was choking on a ton of blood. Trigger warning. And that happened twice. I woke up in the middle of the night and I thought I was going to asphyxiate on my blood. So from there, I developed PTSD myself. And I'm a therapist and I knew exactly what happened. And so I got into therapy immediately, but it put my body on this roller coaster of physical problems. I ended up losing over 20 pounds. I couldn't eat. I couldn't get out of bed.

Nika: So what got me through that was among many things, but romantasy, I got into that genre during this time. And it was the one thing that helped me separate myself from my chronic physical pain.  And I read almost 200 books in one year in the romantasy genre.  And so I came to like really explore what is it about these MMCs that women are so in love with? Like, what are the characteristics?  Why do I love some of these?  Like, I love these men. Like, what is it? And they're not all the same, right? Like you have like bullies and morally gray and whatever. But there were enough characteristics that I was like, this is what I think is attracting people to these types of characters. And then on a separate note, throughout my life, people have encouraged me to write.And when I got out of being sick, I'd worked with a functional doctor for over a year.And finally, my body started to heal.

Nika: And all these random people were like, you should write a book. And I'm like, who are you? And then I was like, maybe I will.  I think I had this sense of my health is not guaranteed. I'm only getting older. And this is a dream. Why not? Let's just go for it. The worst that's gonna happen is it's gonna fail. And you know what? If I don't write it, it's like failed anyway, right? So, yeah. So I pursued it kind of from that space. Nika: Yeah, that would be the short answer.

Megan: The short answer.

Nika: Right.

Megan: But that is so great. And you know what? I just want to say that's so empowering to hear. And proud of you. I'm very proud of you for doing that.

Nika: Thank you.

Megan: That being said, how long did it take you to write it?

Nika: So the first draft took me about six months.And I do hybrid homeschool my kids. So it's not like I could just dedicate a tremendous amount of time to writing.  Also, I didn't know what I was doing. And then I sent it to my incredible developmental editor, and she ripped it apart. All has been. As they do, as they should. Honestly, I was like, I can't be mad at her because everything she's saying is right. But one of the things she said was like, I don't think you can do the dual point of view. Otherwise, you're going to have to essentially rewrite the whole thing.And I'm definitely somebody that if you tell me like, I probably can't do it, then I'm just like, watch me. So I was like, why do you think I'm afraid to rewrite the whole thing? Which I was like, I'm afraid to rewrite the whole thing. So, but I did. I did because I really, I believed in and really wanted to do a POV book. And so that all took me close to probably nine. Nine or 10 months.  Some of that is waiting on third parties, right? Like you send stuff off, you got to wait, get it back. But yeah.

Steph: Yeah.

Steph: So what was the easiest part of the book to write?

Steph: And also the hardest?

Nika: The easiest part was the end. Because I knew exactly where it was headed. And a fun note, actually, I went to a book signing for Rebecca Ross, because she came out with Wild Reverence, I think. Is that the same? She came out with Wild Reverence. And so me and a couple of book friends went to go see her, and she mentioned rewriting that in a completely different point of view. I think, I don't know, third to first. And she talked about starting it when they were younger. Like she realized she had to go back. And so I actually went back and had the idea, my book would be so much richer if I added my prologue and set it up from that perspective. So I felt like that was that was pivotal for for my story to me. I thought that was really awesome.

Nika: The hardest part was probably. Man, there were a couple of scenes that I did end up cutting, but I tried so damn hard to keep them. I wanted to keep them so bad. And my developmental editor was even like, I know you really want this, but I really don't think this is the place for it. And I'm like, oh, but what if it was?

Steph: What if it was?

Megan: Now I want to know.

Megan: I'm like, was it this part?

Megan: Was it this part?

Nika: Oh, yeah, so it's not in there.

Nika: It's not in the book.

Steph: That's what bonus chapters are for though.

Nika: I know.

Steph: Yes, bonus.

Nika: There is a quote, there is a quote that I had to take out because the scene didn't fit, but I put that quote in the second book and it probably fits better there, but it had come to me on a, I wrote it down on my night scene. I was like, the middle of the night.  I was like, it's a great line.  And so, I am glad I did force that one into the second book, so. Perfect.

Megan: Now, let's talk about what surprised you the most when you started writing a romantic series.

Nika: Yes, great question.

Nika: So, I am definitely somebody who can get stuff done, and I do a lot of it all by myself. And I think that that's cute and all, but most of life, you do need people. And so, I think for me is, and I thankfully recognize this kind of early on, but the importance of having a group of people around you that can get it, or encourage you, or even just speak into the blind spots. And I think I actually was seeing a therapist at the time, because it was early on, and I was still getting over being sick, and I had been seeing a therapist to see him honestly.  So, I'm a trauma therapist, and so I was like, am I holding my trauma somatically?  Is that way I can't get better? And I don't think that's actually what had happened, but I started seeing a therapist just in case. Just in case I'm storing my trauma in some physical way.

Nika: And so she actually kind of recommended, well, why don't you start a group of authors? And I was like, well, that's weird. See, what, is that my response to everything? But I do that, but then I do the thing. So anyways, I started this Instagram chat. I don't even remember how I found some of these people. And that has been a group of authors that I have been working with and chatting with, and we've been encouraging each other across the US., in Canada, in Sweden and the UK. And even two of them, my husband actually was like, are you going to RomantasyCon Book Convention again? Because I had gone two years ago. And I was like, no, I'm not, because the girls that I went with, like, they're not able to go this year. And he was like, why don't you ask some of your author friends? And I was like, that is so weird. Like, hey, stranger, want to bunk up for two nights? Hope we're not all weird. But we all did. Like, I asked and they were like, yes, let's do it. So, me and LC Whitehouse and Lindsay Riley, who is working on her debut, we all went to LA. And I'm like, that never would have happened if I hadn't stepped out and taken a risk to connect.And without their input, like so much about marketing and getting this beautiful book baby out into the world would not have happened without that group of authors.

Megan: And the first one is how we all met.

Nika: That's right.

Megan: So, you know, it was all meant to be. Everything happens for a reason.  And now step A leads to step X, Y, Z.  And so, so glad you did that. And we met you there.

Nika: I know, I know.

Nika: That's so cool.

Nika: I love it.

Nika: Yes.

Megan: Yeah.

Steph: So, let's talk about magic and Realms of Ruin. It is fairly unique. I would say fairly complex.

Megan: Okay.

Steph: How would you, how did you go about deciding how magic would work?

Steph: And most importantly, are there aspects of the magic that we have not seen yet?

Nika:Okay.

Nika: So, shortly before I started writing, I had taken a few of Brandon Sanderson's, he has like a whole thing of free classes on YouTube, specifically for writing fantasy. He has like a world-building thing and magic systems and stuff. So, I had listened to several of those. And then the Romantasy Book Con, not this most recent, but the one before, I had gone to a seminar or whatever, talk with Melissa Roehrich, among other authors. And it was about magic systems. And one of the things she talks about and that Brandon Sanderson talks about, is the importance of having magic have a cost. And so, if magic solves all problems, then it sucks out so much of the conflict and the tension that you could have to your story, in your story.

Nika: And so, I honestly didn't fully map out my magic system when I started. And I knew I wanted to have a shadowy MMC. But I didn't want it to be like the shadow daddy, morally gray, like this is how shadows work that we've all seen. And so his shadows are a product of something else. Everybody in Realms of Ruin has some sort of kind of elemental type, what I call base magic. But I have a tiered system that does emerge later in the book and is definitely fleshed out more in book two. So, there is that.

Steph: Which means, no, we have not seen all of the magic.

Megan: Right, there is more.

Steph: There is more.

Nika: Yeah.

Megan: Because I do really like that you have the Supremes and the Vestals and the Anchors and even have astral magic.

Megan: So it's like you combine a lot of different elements, like you said.

Nika: Yes.

Megan: But then you also mentioned a tier based of like, this is a higher magic, this is a this magic.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: So I'm not great at being creative with making up names. A lot of what you find in Realms of Ruin, I have actually looked up translations in other languages.So astral, I mean, that means star, right? Noct, the German word for night is N-A-C-H-T, like noct. And so my magic is light and dark. And I've written so much of book two, I cannot honestly remember what I said in book one, but I don't want to say too much.

Steph: So this might be the point where if you don't want to hear a spoiler, you don't have to answer anymore.

Megan: It's okay.

Nika: Well, so yeah, there's just definitely a light and dark aspect.

Nika: Good and bad, light, dark.

Nika: So there's that split.

Nika: And then like you said, there's a tiered aspect as well.

Megan: Then it also seems like, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, you can kind of buy into other magic in a way by giving away part of your magic to become something else.

Steph: Or having it taken.

Megan: Or having it taken.

Megan: Yes.

Nika: So I would say, that's usually a...

Megan: Without spoiling anything.

Nika: That's a cool element. Yes. You could drain somebody's magic and use it for nefarious purposes. Yes, we can manipulate it.

Megan: Let's talk magic and everything, but can't too much. Okay. So now that we've talked magic, let's talk trauma, because that is a massive role in your story. Why was it so important to you to showcase the long-term effects that this can have on characters? What are you hoping the readers are going to take away from that?

Nika: Yeah.  So as I think I mentioned earlier, I am actually a trained trauma therapist. I'm trained in EMDR, and I've been doing that for over 10 years. I myself have a history of trauma, not the most recent, including in that, but I have childhood trauma as well. So I've done a lot of my own personal work. And one of the things that I love about Romanesy, again, is the way that it utilizes story to show what could be.

Nika: We tend to be in this, we are in a culture where men can be super narcissistic and manipulative and violent toward women or selfish and just all these things.  We see these things played out in a variety of ways.  If it hasn't happened to you, it's happened to someone you know, at least the rates of abuse among women are one in three when it comes to sexual abuse, actually. So it's high. You can almost guarantee in a room full of women, at least half of them have had something terrible happen, physical, emotional or sexual.

Nika: And so, quite frankly, the actual number one reason I wanted to write this entire series is so that I could show a PTSD growth arc within the context of a loving relationship. I don't think true healing comes again in isolation. That's just not really possible. Like abuse and trauma happen because of another person. And so that healing must also take place in the context of some sort of safe relationship. And so I create a lot of trauma.

Steph: You do.

Nika: It's kind of intense and it gets a little bit more violent in book two even.

Steph: That's hard to imagine right now.

Steph: Oh my gosh.

Steph: The way book one ended.

Nika: Yeah, it just picks up where book one leaves off, essentially.

Megan: Okay, good.

Megan: We have questions.

Nika: Yes.

Nika: Yes.

Nika: Yes.

Nika: But it's purpose. I mean, it is all purposeful. It's not meant to be gratuitous. It's not meant to just for shock. I am literally purposefully setting everything up so that you have these really redemptive scenes. And I actually, I don't have it in front of me, but I just got, you know, people are in different moods when they read books. People are reading books for different reasons. Sometimes people think your book is one thing and they're disappointed because it's not. And I'm like, I never said it was that. But I got this beautiful five-star review, I think yesterday, and it was somebody who just completely connected with the healing arc. And the true deeper healing arc is in the next book, but it was like, that's what I'm writing for. Like even if it doesn't hit, it's not going to hit everybody the same, and that's totally fine. But I think if it does hit you deeply, then it could mean that's because you've experienced some really hard suffering, so I don't wish that on anybody. But if somebody could read this book and then come away with it saying, oh, wow, there is hope, or there's a… I have seen a possibility of a future that could include this. It's worth fighting for.

Steph: I think that's beautiful.  I think that's the thing about Romanesty that I love the most is every book, when you read it, can hit you differently based on where you are in your point in life right now. There are books where, if you recently experienced something, or you're trying to heal from something that happened years ago, and you read it, it's going to hit so much harder than it might have five years before. I think that's one of the things that's really beautiful about it, is that you can connect with so many different people, and it's not just that one moment, it's about what they're going through.

Nika: So.

Nika: Yes.

Nika: Yeah.

Steph: Okay.

Steph: So what is your favorite line or passage from the book and why?

Nika: Okay.

Nika: Okay, there's kind of a lot.

Nika: I, don't worry, I'm only going to share two.

Nika: So I had come across this like mild insult and thought it was great, so I added it to the book. I'm short, by the way, I'm 5'1.  My husband's actually 6'4.  Like everyone in my life is tall. And I love like taking people down just a hair, especially men. When I was in school, actually, they told me I would work as a therapist really well with alpha males because I do not get intimidated. And I like, oh, look, I'm so small, me. But then I'm like coming in hot. Yeah, you do. So anyway, I do have a little dig where Ruin tells the rebel general that he has the confidence of a much taller man.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: And he's tall, like in the book.

Nika: And she even says, like, he's really tall. Like, she knows it.And she's like purposefully using that to knock him down a notch. So I like that a lot. That's good.

Nika: But on a more, like, swoony note, if you will, there's like a little chunk where Dominus is speaking to Ruin. And he says, you are so much more. You are the thoughts that keep me awake at night, the power that calls to my own. You are the water that quenches my soul. And you are who the Great One foretold, who I knew in part, and I drew from visions, but now I see in full. And you are everything beautiful. I like that.

Megan: I just got goose bumps again from that line.

Megan: Oh, that is a good one.

Nika: I do like that one.

Megan: That's a really, really good one. I do, I really do love his, like Dom's, like his whole story, like and like the inner turmoil he goes through throughout the book of like who he thought he was and now who he's becoming.

Nika: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Megan: You did a great job on that one.

Nika: Thank you.

Megan: And so, and I love that line specifically because it kind of encapsulates a little bit of like how he's found himself. And that's without any spoilers, of course, when we try to like not spoil things, but it's like, it's great. It's so great.

Nika: Thank you.

Megan: So would you ever consider writing a bigger prequel?

Megan: I know you gave us like a little bit of like a teaser of it when they were younger, but like even more so, like more of like his backstory even.

Nika: So I haven't actually considered it for either of the main characters, because part of like his history comes out more in subsequent books. So in book two, for sure, you're going to get a lot more understanding about how did he end up the way he did, what's his heritage, where is he headed?That does a lot more of that is laid out in book two. But I had a beta reader who was really into the Nereid Queen, Queen Thalaya. And she is like a mermaid queen, basically. So I do have like nymphs. I drew from some Greek mythology for Realms of Ruin. And it's not a one-to-one, like it's not the Grecian nymphs of old, are exactly what they are in Realms of Ruin. But I do have like them feature a role as being kind of a different form of magical being. And so it's a different realm. It's the narried realm under the ocean, in the ocean.

Megan: I loved that scene.

Megan: That filled all my like little mermaid feelings.

Megan: It was like, yes, it was like, oh, mermaids, perfect.

Nika: Yes, yes.

Nika: I love it.

Nika: And so she, this beta reader was like, can you do a prequel of like Queen Thalia's story? Like I would love to know more about her. So that is not planned at all, but that entertained the idea.

Steph: Would you like some requests?

Nika: Yes, please.

Megan: I was like, I would read that.

Megan: Yes, please.

Megan: Give me more mermaids.

Nika: Okay.

Nika: Oh, yes, yes.

Nika: I love it.

Nika: Give me.

Steph: So we'll start with the list.

Steph: Just playing off that one, I think knowing more about the war that she fought in one, I think that is very interesting.

Steph: But-

Nika: Wait, wait, Queen Thalia?

Steph: Didn't she find a previous, fought a previous war in one?

Nika: Yes.

Nika: No, I was just verifying.

Nika: That's who you were referring to.

Nika: Okay.

Nika: Yeah.

Steph: So I'd like to know more about that. I also specifically, so when I think of a prequel, well, it'd be great to see like them together. I am very interested in King Nolan.

Nika: Yes.

Steph: Very, very interested.

Steph: I mean, I fucking hate him just to be super clear.

Steph: hate him.

Steph: Love to hate him. But I feel like we don't get enough of him and the, what I think, psycho capabilities he has. And so I really want to learn how, what exactly, who he was, how he became what he was.

Nika: Like his origins, his villain story.

Steph: His origin story, his villain story, how her parents got involved.

Steph: And then tied to that, which I don't think this is a spoiler.

Steph: I just think this is me dissecting her book and probably way too much theory.

Nika: Do it, do it, I love it.

Steph: I wanna know what the, there are gods. We know that those gods are not prayed to that much anymore. I would like to know why. I would like to know who they are. I would like to know why. I would like to know how they were worshiped before. I would like to better understand. Oh, that's for it. Stephanie has given it to you.

Nika: Yeah, I love it.

Nika: I love it.

Steph: Exactly what happened that made people stop doing something? Because I do think there is, and I think I'm also like a huge fan of Jennifer Armentrout and what she's done with the Blood and Ash series and Flesh and Fire. And right, so like Blood and Ash, you kind of read three books, then you read like a book one of Flesh and Fire, which kind of goes back in time and shows you kind of like the origin story for some of the things that are happening. And she kind of like released her books in that way.  And I think there are some aspects of your world that you've built where these kind of prequels could be, whether they're novellas or full books, could provide so much more context to what's happening and why it's happening. So I literally had a list up. I had to watch one for them. This would be really fascinating to learn more about because I think there is more there. And that might be stuff that comes out obviously later, like in future books too. But I think you could tell entire stories around it.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: One, I think you should just email me your list of desires and I will 100 percent dig into that. Yes. It's funny because like I mentioned, I'm a huge context person. One, okay. So one of the things that's also really hard about writing Romanticie is that the world-building piece is so complicated because you can't just dump it all on your readers because it's boring. No one wants an info dump. But how to do the world-building and the history. And so I actually did have more history but it like was didn't make the cut because it slowed the pacing and blah, blah, blah. And so, yeah, so it, I understand why it leaves the reader wanting. But I like, I like your thoughts here on even just how to tease out more of the magic, not the magic system, but like, yeah, like the gods, the world and the culture.

Megan: The realms, if you will.

Nika: The realms, yes.

Nika: And I will, yes.

Megan: I love it.

Megan: I love it.

Megan: Well then, what can you tell us about Book 2?

Nika: Well, Book 2 does pick up like literally moments after Book 1.

Megan: Should we say perhaps like the whole like spoiler if you haven't read it?

Nika: Yeah, we could say that.

Nika: Sure.  I'm going to try my best not to. It's hard to because even trying to market my book, it's like I'm purposefully not saying certain things that I think would attract readers, but I'm like, but then it just spoils it. And that's depressing. We don't want that. Yes. So Book 1 picks up, sorry, Book 2 picks up exactly where Book 1 ends off. It's partially why I'm almost on writing Book 2 is because I didn't have to like start from ground zero or pick up a year later or anything. It was just like, and I'm going to keep going.  Right, right, right through that. Let's see. I'm trying to remember when I introduced certain things. I don't think it was Book 1, so I definitely don't want to spoil that. Okay. How spoiler do you want to get? Because I can pick up with a prologue, because the prologue has a reveal.

Megan: I mean, you could even just say like, kind of like reiterate what you said before, like you're going to find out more about Dom's background and stuff.

Megan: If you want to keep it vague like that, you totally can.

Steph: Or if you want to tell us all the things, we will.

Megan: And we don't have to tell anyone, we can just cut that up, but we want to know.

Nika: Well, it ends as Dom finding out for sure that he has a fated mate, Dom is still cursed, his blood is still killing him, and Ruin is utterly helpless as she is drained of all of her magical capacities, and is brought to the brink of death over and over again, and refilled just enough so that she doesn't die. But Dom is too weak to come and get her because he is dying. So that's a problem. It's a little one. So yeah, so in Book 2, we will see more about the Fated Mate situation, more about the blood curse. There is more. We're going to learn why my man Dom here, I'm at this character card.

Megan: Hi Dom, hi honey.

Nika: He is a Consent King, and I really go hard on that in Book 2. And there is just a scene that I am so in love with, how it came about. And so there are, it's funny. So I started writing Book 2, and my intention was to have one really great spicy scene. And as I got into it, I actually didn't write for several weeks because I ended with, there had to be a spicy scene. And I was like, but no, it's too early. I don't want that. It's too early. That wasn't my plan. But everything with the plot and the storyline, it was like this, it's, yeah. So there's more than one and there might be three. I don't know.

Megan: Yay!

Megan: We live for the spice.

Steph: Yeah.

Nika: So I would say Book 1...

Megan: It was a slow burn the first time.

Steph: I was like, oh.

Nika: It is.

Nika: It is.

Megan: But like I wanted it.

Megan: I wanted them.

Nika: Very slow. Yes, you were right. It's, I say it's like a one, one and a half chili pepper. Somebody said it was three chili peppers.  I, everyone has a different...

Steph: Rating system.

Steph: Yeah.

Nika: Rating.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: But if you think it's a two, if you think Book 1 is a two, cause it is, it's one scene, but it is kind of, it's pretty explicit.

Nika: Book 2 might be four or five.

Megan: Oh honey.

Nika: Yes, please. So, but they're purposeful. So again, I'm not just throwing in the violence to be gratuitous, and I'm not throwing in the sex to be gratuitous. They actually do have very, the first scene I also really love. I would say, I actually told a friend the other day, who doesn't love reading tons of Spice, I was like, the first Spice scene is like, you must read that because there's a lot that happens in that scene that's purposeful. The second one is for your reading enjoyment.

Megan: What chapters or scenes should we consider rereading?

Megan: If we want to be prepared for what's coming in the next book?

Nika: I feel like just the last two chapters maybe would be important just because I know a lot happens. It would be helpful just to get it strategized in your brain. Because again, book two literally just picks up right where it leaves off. So I think that would be good.

Megan: Okay, any little things to pay attention to specifically?

Steph: Perhaps the scene where their silver tattoos happen.

Megan: Yeah.

Steph: Like maybe, or maybe when they're in the frozen cave and she uses her powers to pull some things out of his blood.

Steph: I mean, I can keep going if you would like, because...

Megan: Oh my god, I love that part.

Steph: I was like, can she heal him?

Steph: Could she do it?

Megan: Like the compass.

Steph: Or perhaps the times where they don't remember saying things out loud, but somehow can hear each other and they haven't taken the magical elixir.

Steph: Huh?

Nika: Interesting.

Steph: I can keep going.

Nika: Well, that did happen in one of the last chapters.

Nika: So...

Megan: Okay, so she covered it.

Nika: Yes, you can pay attention to that. Those are things. Yeah, yeah.  I mean... All the things you just said, actually, they are pertinent. That glacial cave scene. I love the glacial cave scene. Yes. I don't even know where I got the idea for a glacial cave. I forget.

Nika: But they're beautiful.

Nika: You can look up pictures of like real glacial caves. They're gorgeous. Oh, maybe it was because you know what it was. I went in the kids section of the library and they had this like very informative mermaid book. And it was like if they were real, like it was like mermaids of the fjords and mermaids of the booms and mermaids of, you know, swamps. Anyway, and so I was like, it was like in lightning. I'm like, this is the definitive book on mermaids.

Megan: Okay.

Nika: But they had one about, I think it was glacial caves.

Nika: And I was like, I got to have a scene in a glacial cave and they got to stay warm.

Megan: Oh, naturally.

Steph: It's for science.

Megan: It's for science.

Nika: Just for science, yes. Yeah, we have, yes, the little emblem on like right above their hearts. That is important. And we might see more in that realm, not realm as in like a world, but just like in that area of what that is. So it might grow. It might not, but there could be growth. Yes, it is. There is meaning. Yep.

Megan: I love it.

Steph: Is there a trader?

Nika: A trader?

Steph: Yeah.

Megan: Yes.

Megan: Is there a mole?

Nika: Tell me your theory.

Steph: Oh, we're gonna unhint her. Do I think that there is a trader on the rebellion side? I do. I think there is… Or I think Ruin has a fucking air tag on her, because how else...

Megan: Well, she did, sort of.

Steph: Yeah, but after that's removed, I know.

Steph: And they still were able to, like...

Megan: Could there be more than one?

Steph: I think they would have found it during that process when they were trying to figure out where it was. I think they would have noticed it. But… There just seems to be… Evil creatures show up more often than they should if they were just randomly looking for her. They seem to be overly prepared for what's going on, which makes me question, is it possible that King Nolan has an oracle and can see things, which is true, which we've only really heard about Dom's side having an oracle so far.

Nika: Like the Primes, right?

Steph: Yes.

Steph: Yeah.

Steph: And there's not supposed to be any more of them, right?

Steph: Which leads me to believe that there has to be a traitor.

Steph: So, I would like to put in my request for who it is not.

Nika: Oh, yes.

Steph: Oh, okay.

Megan: Sure.

Megan: I don't know if she can confirm or deny, but.

Steph: Don't make it Finn.

Megan: Oh, Finn, no.

Nika: It is not Finn.

Steph: Okay.

Nika: And I'm not saying there is a traitor either, actually. But no, Finn does have a more prominent role in Book 2. Oh, actually, I could say this. I don't know if you had a chance or saw that there was a bonus chapter. Yes. And it is about Daila. And so she gets her own point of view in the third book. So it becomes more of a multi POV. And you'll get more of, you'll get a lot more understanding about side characters from Book 1 and Book 2.

Megan: Do we get a King Nolan POV?

Nika: There is not a King Nolan POV.

Megan: That's okay.

Megan: We don't really need it.

Megan: I'm just curious.

Steph: I would read it, though.

Megan: I would read it.

Megan: Absolutely.

Megan: But I'd be like, you're an asshole.

Megan: I'm curious.

Steph: That would actually be a fantastic bonus chapter is if you, the last two chapters in King Nolan's POV. Like what is going through his mind with what he's doing?

Nika:You do learn more about him.

Steph: He's fascinating to me.

Steph: I love to hate villains.

Nika: Yes.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: And I like to put things with pretty little bows on them. So sometimes it's hard for me to keep things open-ended and all the things. But one of the things you said I was going to respond about.

Steph: That you're not going to kill Finn either.

Steph: I feel like Finn reminds me a lot of Riddick from 4th Wing.

Nika: See, I actually haven't read 4th Wing.

Steph: Okay.

Steph: Well, then you will understand.

Steph: But I will-

Nika: You say it anyway.

Steph: But if you're the best buddy that you love. You can't kill Riddick.You just can't. And that's who Finn reminded me of. He's the guy that's kind of like, he jokes a lot, he's really funny, he likes to poke at people. But at the end of the day, he is not going to ask questions. You need to bury a body. He's going with you. You need to storm a palace. He's like, I got you, boo. And they're my favorite type of side characters. Often because I think that they, there are more onions that you can peel apart. You only get to see the side of them that they feel comfortable sharing. And they oftentimes tend to be a lot more vulnerable. So I am just hoping that he's not the traitor and we don't kill him.

Nika: Hey, I will let the writing gods know your request.

Steph: Throwing it out there.

Nika: But I know what I was going to say. And so just like circling back to yes, the primes are in Ophelia, the liberation camp, the rebel camp. But the way that the magic is set up is that you have astral magic and you have knocked magic. And a way, so I, this might spoiler, this could be a spoiler for a little bit that comes out more in book two, and I can't remember if it was in book one at all or not. So this could be a spoiler. But you can take magic from others, which at its heart is light magic, and you can create, the only way to create and do the things that King Nolan is doing is by distorting that magic and turning it in on itself.And so it turns into this dark magic. So are there primes?

Nika: There are no, there's not any primes, but could he create his version of them?

Nika: He can.

Steph: Yes.

Nika: Okay.

Nika: Yeah.

Nika: So.

Steph: Ooh.

Megan: Oh, I'm excited.

Megan: I am excited.

Steph: Thanks for listening to Late Night Reads. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram, TikTok and Facebook at Late Night Reads Podcast, and check out latenightreads.com for even more information about all the books we're reading.  If you loved today's episode, make sure to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast, and share the show with your fellow book lovers.